A most unexpected discussion

A debate like this is to be welcomed, isn’t it?

And, This is Steve Bannon | This is Gavin Newsom

Gavin Newsom’s Podcast Hosts Steve Bannon, Covering Musk, Trump and Taxes

March 12, 2025

Gov. Gavin Newsom of California is one of the most powerful Democrats in America, but this week he used his perch not to push back on the Trump administration but to instead podcast with an intellectual architect of the MAGA movement: Stephen K. Bannon.

Their fast-paced, hourlong discussion was both good-natured and peppered with predictable disagreements. But the conversation revealed some curious policy overlap and potentially exposed each man’s views to supporters of the other.

“This is part of the process to unwind you from being a globalist to make you a populist nationalist,” Mr. Bannon said. “It’s a long journey.”

Mr. Newsom seemed amused: “This is part of the deprogramming, is it?”

But Mr. Bannon didn’t so much use the opportunity to press Mr. Newsom on his positions as he did to advance his own perspective during their cursory coverage of some of the most complex issues facing the nation and the world.

The podcast was the latest episode of “This Is Gavin Newsom,” a new show in which he has hosted several prominent conservatives. The Bannon conversation focused on economic issues, avoiding culture-war topics that dominated an earlier episode in which he broke with other leaders of his party in speaking out on transgender athletes.

The tenor with Mr. Bannon was set early on, when Mr. Newsom did not push back on his guest’s repeated false claims that President Trump won the 2020 election. The governor does not appear to view the discussions as fact-checking sessions: He interjected only intermittently, including when Mr. Bannon referred to Senator Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts as “Pocahontas.”

“Senator Warren,” Mr. Newsom said.

Mr. Bannon proceeded to repeat the derogatory nickname.

Instead, Mr. Newsom and Mr. Bannon focused at times on some surprising common ground, including skepticism of Elon Musk and an aversion to tax cuts for the rich and corporations.

“The upper bracket shouldn’t get it, and even some of the corporations shouldn’t get it if they’re just going to do stock buybacks,” Mr. Bannon said.

Later, Mr. Newsom urged him, “Tell your president that, Steve.”

Mr. Bannon openly tried to recruit Mr. Newsom to what he calls his economic populist approach, lavishing praise on another California Democrat, Representative Ro Khanna, as well as Senator John Fetterman of Pennsylvania.

“If we’re ever to get a control of the oligarchs, you, as governor and as, quite frankly, the leader of that wing of the party, have got to work with us to say, ‘Hey, this can’t go on any longer,’” Mr. Bannon said.

Mr. Bannon then spoke favorably of Lina Khan, the former chair of the Federal Trade Commission under President Joseph R. Biden Jr., who was vilified by many business leaders.

“He got rid of her!” Mr. Newsom said of Mr. Trump.

“I don’t think Lina Khan’s name ever crossed the lips of Kamala Harris,” Mr. Bannon tried to push back.

“I don’t recall,” Mr. Newsom said.

Mr. Newsom did at times press Mr. Bannon, who wants to drastically cut the size of the federal government, on whether Mr. Trump was truly aligned with that cause.

Mr. Newsom recounted Mr. Trump literally waving his hands to dismiss the impact of deficits as the two men rode together on Marine One. “Printing press,” Mr. Newsom quoted the president as saying. “Printing press.”

Mr. Bannon insisted Mr. Trump had been kidding.

“Not the way he governed the first four years, I’m not sure he was,” Mr. Newsom retorted.

Mr. Bannon called for cuts to military spending and to programs that many Republican voters utilize, such as Medicaid.

“There’s a lot of MAGA on Medicaid,” he said, adding, “This is not going to be painless.”

Mr. Newsom has long been fascinated with the conservative media ecosystem and has said Republicans are beating Democrats in using mass communication tools to spread their message. Now in his final two years as governor, and widely seen as a potential contender in the 2028 presidential race, Mr. Newsom is experimenting with new channels.

He began a podcast called “Politickin’” last summer with his longtime friend Doug Hendrickson, an N.F.L. agent, and Marshawn Lynch, a former professional football player. Despite the name, the podcast included few discussions about politics, instead featuring celebrity interviews and banter among the hosts.

Mr. Newsom decided this year to break off and create a solo podcast focused on political conversations that has begun with leading figures in Mr. Trump’s movement. In the debut episode last week, Mr. Newsom shocked some liberal allies when he told his guest, Charlie Kirk, who leads the youth organization Turning Point USA, that he agreed it was “deeply unfair” for transgender students to play in female sports.

Mr. Bannon did not bring up the topic, though a different conservative whom Mr. Newsom had on his podcast this week, the commentator Michael Savage, told the governor that Democrats’ support for transgender youth had caused them to lose in last year’s elections. In that episode, Mr. Newsom also mentioned his recent visit with the president in the Oval Office seeking disaster aid to help Los Angeles recover from the enormous wildfires in January.

“We’re getting along, Trump and I,” Mr. Newsom said.

One striking topic in his conversation with Mr. Bannon was Mr. Musk, whom Mr. Bannon has called a “parasitic illegal immigrant.”

“We may share some commonality in terms of concern about what he’s doing,” Mr. Newsom said.

“Hang on, hang on,” Mr. Bannon interrupted. “You loved all the oligarchs, in particular Elon, until they flipped.”

Mr. Bannon was somewhat more measured in his attacks on Mr. Musk, the world’s richest man, praising some of the cuts that he is pursuing through the so-called Department of Government Efficiency. He also gave Mr. Musk credit for having “backed the play” of Mr. Trump’s campaign with $280 million of super PAC spending.

“What’s his end game here?” Mr. Newsom asked.

Mr. Bannon said that California had actually enabled Mr. Musk’s rise through state incentives for clean cars: “Well, you know it, you guys — you created him, governor.”

Mr. Newsom did not disagree. “By the way, in many respects, California did,” he said. “It was our regulatory process and our subsidies to create this market. You’re 100 percent right.”